(Tolkien sure did hate including women in his books, by the way)

With good reason. Fantasy is no place for Political Correctness. Read the
"Guardians of the Flame" series by Joel Rosenberg. In the first book, the
only two women in the group get gang-raped by the bad guys. EXACTLY what
would happen if anyone was stupid enough to play a female character at my
table. We all know that the characters are going to wind up in a bad spot
sooner or later, and well, it's gonna be ugly for the wenches.

From Rodney Leary
Thursday, August 12 1999

Sounds to me like only the STUPID would play at your table, male or female.
How many of your MALE characters would stick around if you had SOMETHING rape
them? That happened also, or is that to politically correct for you? I
suppose you run adventures dealing with child rape also. I do hope I'm not
the only person on this list who is slightly disgusted by the above comment.

Rodney Leary (a game master with 3 female players)

***

From Christopher R. Almy
Thursday, August 12, 1999 

<<Someone was talking about the lack of female players in D&D (or RPGs in
general). I'm female and have been playing D&D since 1980, DMing since
around 1985 or 1986. The person who introduced me to the game was a
female friend of mine and I still consider her one of the best DMs I've ever
known. Years later, in 1989, I met another female player who also turned out to
be an excellent DM. Every single group I've been in since 1980 has had at
least one female player in it -- and I'm not just talking about myself.
They certainly aren't as prevalent as male players, but they are out
there. Someone else brought up a good point, though...that many females avoid
gaming because of the attitudes they get from the male players. I've
noticed this myself, especially at gaming conventions.>> (from an otherwise unheard from sender named Kym) 

[Chris Almy] I've had a female in groups I've played in on rare
occaisions and have made note that the DM either a) has them raped by
goblins, etc.. b) gives them everything they want because their cute. or c)
talks down to them constanty. Of course in all these situations the DM was
an immature teenager. I personally read a lot of the novels and the majority
of them have strong female major characters so I like to see females more in
gaming. Sure, men can play a female character, but they typically ignore the
fact that it's a female character or make it very stereotypical "blond
jokes" kind of woman.

<< It's also ridiculous for people to generalize and suggest that male
players are geeks with no lives and no hope for getting a girlfriend.>>

[Chris Almy] I may be one of those geeks and possibly so are
everyone I currently play with. I think the main reason more females don't
game is because of this stereotype.

What little I do know about women is that most of them
enjoy socializing. I think eventually it will get around that gaming is the
best way to do it and more females will get into it.

***

From George, whose philosophy will become clear to you later.

<<OTH, in fantasy campaigns (Though I've yet to have a female gamer, I have
had a few female characters), sexism plays a HUGE part. A women
adventurer/warrior in midievil society would be dimly viewed by it's
inhabitants. Although "rape" is hardly the standard response, it is
something that a female warrior HAS to fear in combat conditions. And there
WAS a torso stretching incident in a campaign I played in, involving a
female mage and some ogres...>> (From Nexx Many-scars)

As you mentioned, there is a difference between being realistic and abusive.
However, I think the likelihood of something like this is also going to
depend a lot on the campaign world. For example, I can see this as being
quite common on Athas (Dark Sun), simply because the prevailing culture
would think little of it. OTOH, I see it rarely happening in the Realms...
casual rape doesn't really seem to be the Realms's style. With Dragonlance,
I actually see it _almost_ happening as often as it would happen on Athas...
but things would work out so that the characters would have a good chance of
rescuing themselves.

Other worlds, I'm not so familiar with. What I've seen of Greyhawk makes me
feel that it would definitely be a possibility... not something that would
happen every day, but it would happen. Ravenloft it would elict a Horror
check in the victim and a Powers check (with modifiers, IMO) in the scum. I
would also see an element of horrific in it, beyond the actual act...
anything from a vampire-charmed person being forced to ride backseat and
experience it, even if their body was willing, to werebeasts perpetrating
the act. Planescape, Mystara, Spelljammer, and Birthright I don't have the
foggiest idea.

In any case, despite my usual reservations about changing alignment for
single slips (good people killing in revenge, lawful people lying to the
cops once or twice), rape would likely result in an automatic evil alignment
for any PC... and I'd even enforce the penalties for alignment change that I
usually don't deal with. 

(in a later message he wrote, adding to the previous one:)

Jesus, I never even CONSIDERED PC rapists. The example I give is from a
Warhammer Campaign (a nasty gritty world to begin with) where a female mage
was captured, tortured, and yes raped. The remaining 2 PC's (one of the
four died in the initial attack) went out of their way to find and
slaughter the ogres. Psycological (and physical, Ogres ARE "big") hampered
the sorceress for quite a while afterwards, and the male PC's were more
vigilant afterwards.

PC rapists. That would be kinda weird. ESPECIALLY if the female PC is being
run by a female PLAYER. Seems to me that it would sort of negatively charge
the atmosphere, ruin the fun factor for the girl, and defeat the purpose of
inviting her in the first place... But that's just me.

***
Nothing. Nadda. Dangers of Digest.

<<I've never had trouble getting dates, and I game. I grew up in Wyoming,
believe me when I say I never found a girl / woman who was interested in
gaming. The ONLY example above with any relevance is Joan of Arc, the rest
are fictitious. And DL was nothing but a dime-store romance novel hidden
behind swords and sorcery.>> No data on the sender.

You must wake up in the morning and ask yourself, "How am I going to offend
somebody new today?" 

Sardo Wrote:
<<Read the "Guardians of the Flame" series by Joel Rosenberg. In >the first
book, the only two women in the group get gang-raped by >the bad guys.
EXACTLY what would happen if anyone was stupid >enough to play a female
character at my table. We all know that the >characters are going to wind
up in a bad spot sooner or later, and >it's gonna be ugly for the wenches.>>

Having met a number of woman gamers, I can honestly tell you that they're
out there and every bit as dedicated to gaming as their male counterparts.
Perhaps the thought of being near such a narrow-minded gamer has sent them
to more hospitable tables.

As for the DL chronicles, I feel that they did more for modern fantasy than
your precious Guardians of the Flame ever could. As I recall, Karl Culliane
was far more obsessed with his own lady than Tanis Half-Elven ever was with
Laurana.

***

From Nexx Many-scars 
Thursday, August 12, 1999

Actually, I find I play female characters about 30-40% of the time. While
it does take some practice (and a semi-mature DM), I've found it can be
quite a bit of fun, especially in an all-male group (oddly enough, I for
some reason can never convince myself to play a female when there is a woman
at the table).

Just out of curiousity, what sort of problems and interesting things have
people noticed playing out-of-gender characters?

For me, there've been several issues. One of the first characters I played,
my DM went a little overboard on the biological considerations. While of
course it's something that needs to be considered, he wound up giving me a
wide variety of bonuses and penalties to rolls because it was my "time of
the month" (I do recall bonuses to damage and minuses to reaction rolls).
This character was also basically date-raped by a party member (we had far
too much to drink, and he found the wrong room... the DM enjoyed that
session far too much).

Another interesting one is when your character develops a genuine attraction
for another character. In my case, Morgan (the character I was playing)
developed an attraction (a combination, in this case, of lust, like, and
respect) for another character. We worked it together well, but I think it
did wind up getting creepy for the other 2 guys in our group when we two
would cuddle, because our characters were...

Anyone have anything to add?

***

From Sidhain 
August 12, 1999

<<Ugh. I really pity you if you think that the only use for women in a
game setting is sex. You're robbing yourself of an extremely rich area
of fantasy and history, and doubtless your attitudes ruin other aspects
of your game as well.>> (Unknown speaker)

Indeed, I concur--juvenile power fantasies don't really have much of a place
in gaming, being a Superhero, a Spy or something, but Rape, is beyond the
levels of good taste.

***

From Falerin Ardendor
Thursday, August 12, 1999 

We have females in our gaming group. As for gender bending I have seen it done both ways,
very well. We have cases where two males are playing a mated/married couple. As to
problems as a general rule there are things better left to the imagination. When an "encounter"
occurs, it is generally better to say that it happens and not describe explicit detail. I have
NEVER seen a male player playing a female run a stupid blonde type. Most play strong
independent females and do it very well.

***

From Joseph Provenzano
Thursday August 12 1999

I have always encouraged people to play role-playing games, especially
women. When I was younger I was puzzled by the lack of women in the gaming
world, but now when I look back it was more my environment and times that
presented the problem than a lack of interest on their part. I started
playing around the fall of 83 when I was in seventh grade. I lived in a
small rural community here in Iowa and given the extent of the bible-belt it
is only logical that the odds of finding girls to play was against me or any
group.

I later moved on too play in the Navy which stemmed from 88-93, so being
stationed in areas where the men out numbered women still didn't help. Plus
being on all male ships didn't allow for any encounters in gaming with
women. However, while stationed in Florida I did get to DM one female while
I was in the Navy and possibly a couple of more. Why the doubt, I had a
regular game going on and the base hobby shop decided to hold a game night
at the club. I volunteered to run an open game, in which I had 30 people in
one game that ran for about 5 hours or so. There was at least one female in
the group and I know this only because her husband and her joined my regular
game after that night and stayed with the group until I was transferred.

I didn't really encounter high numbers of females in gaming until about
three years ago when I joined up with my last group. My former DM's wife
played as did a friends girlfriend. Then we had another join. All in all
that group had almost 10 women that played in it with two being the regular
number present at any one time. Since leaving that group I have had one
woman join my new group that I run. She's married and soon her husband is
suppose to be joining us.

I think it's great that our hobby allows us to socialize in away that we can
play the game with anyone from anywhere and even use it as a way to bring
the family together. I have another set of friends that are married and
have kids, they both told me how they can't wait for the kids to get old
enough to play so that they can game as a family.

If you don't have women playing in your area it might just be bad luck of
location. However, if you can't keep them in your game then I suggest you
take a look at how you are playing. If you're playing in a group where
someone is being immature toward the women then you should take them aside
and tell them to grow up or leave your group.

Rape rarely has a purpose in the literary world, except for certain stories
to show environment or justify a characters personality, and having NPC's as
victims which the PC's find or help is one thing. Characters that have a
background centered around a rape as part of their background and history is
another. A DM that role-plays a rape happening to a PC should have a really
good reason, whether the player that is running the character is male or
female. If a DM or Player does it on a character that is being played by a
female for the plain purpose of humiliating them, it is nothing short of
sexual harassment and doesn't belong in the game or in any other situation
for that matter.

Role-playing is a wonderful way to meet new people and have a great time. I
would hope that anyone wanting to play would be welcome at a game table,
regardless of age, color, or sex. If they want to play you should let them,
you'll be the better for it and who knows, their PC may save yours.

Joseph Provenzano
***

From Stephen Diamond
Thursday, August 12, 1999


 George Neocleous wrote
<<OTH, in fantasy campaigns (Though I've yet to have a female gamer, I have
had a few female characters), sexism plays a HUGE part. A women
adventurer/warrior in medieval society would be dimly viewed by it's
inhabitants. Although "rape" is hardly the standard response, it is
something that a female warrior HAS to fear in combat conditions. And there
WAS a torso stretching incident in a campaign I played in, involving a
female mage and some ogres...>>

As you mentioned, there is a difference between being realistic and abusive.
 However, I think the likelihood of something like this is also going to
depend a lot on the campaign world. For example, I can see this as being
quite common on Athas (Dark Sun), simply because the prevailing culture
would think little of it.>>

I'd disagree here. On Athas there is little evidence of sexism, as women
fill just as many positions of power as men. From the Sorcerer-Queens, to
powerful matriarchs of noble houses.

<<In any case, despite my usual reservations about changing alignment for
single slips (good people killing in revenge, lawful people lying to the
cops once or twice), rape would likely result in an automatic evil alignment
for any PC... and I'd even enforce the penalties for alignment change that I
usually don't deal with.>>

Personally I'd also discourage a player from this behaviour in any
campaings I'd DM. I know that Role-playing is about playing a character
different from yourself and is a "fantasy, not reality", but I'd question
the fact that a player of mine would be willing to "pretend" they are that
disgusting. In my games players who actively engage in the rape, or wanton
murder of NPC, or PC females (or even males) rarely play in my games for
long. For a similar reason, I try to discourage players from playing "evil"
characters simply because I don't enjoy DM'ing a group who like to
role-play these types of characters. I prefer to lean my games towards the
heroic and not the anti-heroic or villanous.
I've only DMed one game for any length of time where the players were
stereotypically "evil". I had absolutely no fun and this has colored from
that day on.

Stephen

***

From Brian Courtemanche
Thursday, August 12, 1999

2. Women in gaming: I've gamed in several campaigns in which women were
participating. I've also gamed in campaigns were male players roleplayed
female characters. The female gamers do a MUCH better job at roleplaying
their sex. Males roleplaying females tend to make them oversexed
charicatures (read: every man's fantasy) of the real thing. This being
said, having females at the gaming table DOES change the
mood/atmosphere/dynamic of the actual gaming session. For one thing,
excessive burping & farting fueled by nachos, Cokes, and pizza was brought
to a virtual halt, although several male gamers almost died holding in an
evening's worth of their own stink. When females sit in, we all breathe
easier.

***

From Erik E Carl (I have no information other than the sender's name. The dangers of digest.)

I've thus far just been satisfied by simply reading these posts, and that's pretty time-consuming in itself, but a topic of some interest just came up. I've been a DM for nearly 13 years and I've been playing a tad bit longer, and in the early days, of course, I discovered that female players were indeed rare. The few that did play were nearly always the wives and girlfriends of other players.

They've become more common over the years, however. I live in Kansas, and have largely moved from one end of the state to the other throughout my gaming career, and I eventually developed a reputation as a highly-involved, role-playing intensive dungeon master with a soft spot for drama. (This has, of course, done wonders to my disposition among White Wolf's various games, though I'm a sucker for a complex rule system that I'm familiar with inside and out...) With this reputation came a relative influx of female players. Out of the nearly fifty campaign players I have referreed for (and I mean those who played in my games for at least a year or two), at least a dozen women number among them, and the majority of them were not wives or girlfriends of other players (at least at first...).

The female gamers I have worked with have almost always pursued a deeper, more roleplaying-oriented style of play. The also frequently don't get along with each other well, but I haven't quite figured that one out.

Note, however, that their personal relationships rarely have had an impact on that of their characters. I do enjoy good roleplayers.

***

From Bobby Jennings 
Thursday, August 12, 1999 

Ok we've had the drooling and rape issues brought out. I'm glad I don't
game with any of those. I'm a GM/DM, the guy in charge. Yes guy. I would
rather, most part game with ladies. "Why" you ask. It's simple. For the
most part, women tend to roleplay more. That doesn't mean that they
don't enjoy kicking in head, quite the opposite. They do it with more
finesse.

Although I'm not currently running an AD&D game right now, I do have 3
women and 6 men in my group. The men are half and half. Half of the time
they're good and don't make any snide remarks, but then there are a few
times that make you think "Yeah, statements like that are why you're
gonna die alone."

I don't know about the rape issue. It's like anything you do. How about
co-ed softball teams. What makes you think that the after game victory
party won't get you raped. The chances are usually the same. Albeit,
when you play with a group that is more interested in looking at you
than playing. Maybe it's time to find a new group. Or at least voice
your opinion that you are uncomfortable with it. If that doesn't work,
bail. There are always better people to game with.

Now to make a remark about the original statement.
Man. You are dense. It's that kind of mentality that's causing problems
with women gaming. To say a women is weaker and not as rough and tough
as a guy. Try telling that to a woman who has just spent 15+ hours
delivering a newborn baby. Women genetically have a greater tolerance to
pain. It's a fact. Now like with all generalization, that's a broad
statement and there will be some women who aren't. Just like there are
some guys who aren't. Can you say every guy you game with can with stand
the pain of forcing a marble down his urethra? Oh... you can't. If you
are gonna generalize women, I've got one for you. How many of you in
your group are dating women and having relationships with women? I don't
mean, having sex, because anyone walking on two feet can do that. I
mean, girlfriends, wives. That sort of thing. My gut instinct tells me,
that all of you are under 25 and do not have a girl friend or some kind
of female companionship except for that which you buy at the store in a
paper bag.

But that's just my two coppers. (To anyone reading: The expression "two coppers" as a variant on "two cents" has been used countless times. You are not witty when you say it, and when I see it on these boards (and it only happens on role playing boards, as far as I have seen....maybe it's always this same jerkoff), it makes me want to cleave their souls in half with a blunt instrument. Okay. That got under my skin.)

Bob

***

From DeAnna Ferguson
Friday, August 12, 1999

Okay, I've been reading all the negative comments and all the people who have
jumped out to defend female players. Let me make one point: Rape does not occur
in my gaming sessions, PERIOD. It is inappropriate for the game. I don't care
how realistic it is -- yeah, yeah, men and women get raped in real life. I don't
want real life in my game. Otherwise I would play PARANOIA. :)

Those of you who suggest otherwise should think seriously about why you think
it's okay for you to do this to one of your players or for your players to do to
an NPC -- evil or not. You the DM is in control of the situation. If you don't
want rape to happen, it doesn't -- and to hell with what the campaign world
"suggests."

Personally I have never had a problem with any male gamers making "moves" on me
or raping my character or doing anything of the things you folks have suggested.
Obviously I have been very lucky. But let me tell you -- if I did meet a DM who
acted in such an immature, thoughtless, and poor behavior, he would know,
quickly and immediately.

So, to Sard who started this whole thing, I say, "Grow up."

DeAnna (a female gamer and DM since '84)

***

From yours truly, I imagine sometimes around August 12, 1999.

Is rape an effective dramatic device as a background story or as an essential
element of the story? Sounds like it.

Is it appropriate as a device to harass members of the player party
(especially females)? Um, gee... no! What a shock!

Is Dragonlance fantasy (On a side note, there was a discussion comparing Dragonlance to Guardians of the Flame and their relevant fantasy genre values that started this whole thing and kept going alongside it. I tried to root it out where I found it, but didn't always succeed.)? Do more boys role-play than do girls? Yes and yes.

Do girls role-play, though? Yes.

Are women able to be equal members of a PC party? Yes.

Are there immature teenage boys who will abuse a female character or player
because of his stereotypes? Yes.

Realism is nice to have in a game, but there are limits. There's a reason why
AD&D is more popular than Rolemaster. Asphyxiation by the endless variations
on combat does not make for the world's most enjoyable game. By the same
token, something which many people would regard as a fate worse than death is
probably something which has less of a place in the context of a game which
is generally designed to be a device for entertainment (as opposed to a
vehicle for scientific simulation of fantastic environments). If rape is a
necessary part of your fantasy designs, then I'm certainly happy that you are
undoubtedly one of us folks who can separate fantasy from reality at the drop
of a hat, right?

As for women in games...
Role playing games seem to tend gravitate around the ifs and whens of combat.
This is obviously not always the case. Regardless, the common stereotype of
role playing games, one that they have perennially earned through their
geekier, freakier participants regardless of the exceptions, is that they are
harbors for anxious boys who want to escape through personalities who have
the raw potence to solve the problems their players can't. This is a tendency
that men cultivate outside of the fantasy genre. Stereotypical man interests
are things like action movies and military history, Playboy and beer. Guys
get their giggles through direct sensation.

Women, say the stereotypes, like "chick flicks" about the nature of the human
spirit. They read romance novels and mysteries (not spy novels, though),
which don't center around mortality. I don't know why this is since I'm a
guy, but I imagine it's because they are more deeply attuned to that hollow
shadow called the human soul. That's why they're so much better at
manipulating us (on average) than we are them. Whatever. My penis I don't
have a clue between us.

Is role-playing all about combat? Varies from DM to GM to ST. Are all girls
combat-averse? No. I am fairly certain that Feruza Balk would and could kick
my ass. Are all guys empty-minded testosterone sacs? I certainly don't think
I am. And do some of us have girlfriends and not have every episode of
X-Files on tape? Maybe. And in these exceptions and middle grounds come the
women who play half-giant gladiators and the guys who run Dragonlance
campaigns during half-time at their football games.

All sweeping generalizations are stupid. (Irony is cool.)
Fewer women role-play than men. God bless those that do. Try to be nice to
the ones that have the open-mindedness to give the games a shot, and give
respect to the ones who take the time to learn the game and decide it's not
for them (If you get a girlfriend, make her learn the rules and play two or
three sessions with her own character. She should like it if she can open up.
But sometimes they don't... even though it is a perfect opportunity to
explore the myriad facets of [demi]human nature, so screw them.). In the end,
behind the swords and steel brassieres, it's a social game which is mostly
about learning who we are inside and how we interact with each other on a
higher level, about human nature. So play nice.

I hope no one takes the thought I put into this as pompousness;
I certainly did not intend to take it as such.

R. Thompson Plyler

***

From Nexx Many-Scars
Thursday, August 12, 1999
I could be wrong about from whom this letter came. Tell me if you know.
The reason for my suspicion is in the next letter, which I know is from Nexx.

<< PC rapists. That would be kinda weird. ESPECIALLY if the female PC is
being run by a female PLAYER. Seems to me that it would sort of negatively
charge the atmosphere, ruin the fun factor for the girl, and defeat the purpose
of inviting her in the first place... But that's just me.>> (from the above post)

It happens, likely more often than we hear about. The fact is, gaming is
used to act out fantasies. For some, rape is a fantasy... even if they
would never do it in real life, it's still a fantasy. If you have immature
gamers (far more common than I would like), you're going to have people
acting out these kind of things in the game... and I would quite likely
beat severely anyone who did it, before throwing them out of the game.

<<As you mentioned, there is a difference between being realistic and
abusive. However, I think the likelihood of something like this is also going
to depend a lot on the campaign world. For example, I can see this as
being quite common on Athas (Dark Sun), simply because the prevailing culture
would think little of it. I'd disagree here. On Athas there is little evidence of sexism, as women
 fill just as many positions of power as men. From the Sorcerer-Queens, to powerful matriarchs of noble houses.>> (from Steve Diamond's above post)

True, however, sexism doesn't have as much to do with it in my mind as
slavery. Unless you're from Kurn, slavery is going to be a fact of life,
and more than one half-elf has resulted from a "noble" finding one of his
elven slaves attractive, I'll bet. If you're captured, you're likely
considered a slave, and therefore fair game. Rape will happen, not because
women are considered lower, but because slaves are considered lower.

<<Personally I'd also discourage a player from this behaviour in any
campaings I'd DM.>>

I'd discourage it with an 18 inch dagger I have. I know some rape victims,
some of whom are just now getting their lives together after many years.
If the bastard is lucky, I'll only threaten to castrate him, and give him
an hour head start.

<< I've only DMed one game for any length of time where the players were
 stereotypically "evil". I had absolutely no fun and this has colored from
 that day on.>>

I've actually played in evil campaigns, and this rule has stayed constant.
Even my evil characters wouldn't consider it. Human sacrifice, sure, but
not rape.

***

From Nexx Many-Scars 
Friday, August 13, 1999 

<< I'd discourage it with an 18 inch dagger I have. I know some rape
victims, some of whom are just now getting their lives together after many years.
If the bastard is lucky, I'll only threaten to castrate him, and give him
an hour head start.>>

I copied this rather *vehement* excerpt as an example of how strongly
individuals may feel on certain subjects. That is the subject matter of the
remainder of this post, or rather short essay.

In our society there are certain subjects that are classified as "adult" or
"mature." Sexuality (and all its possible variants), racism, slavery, and a
small host of other topics all have the potential to hit a raw nerve with
people. DM's, in their role as storytellers, need to be alert to these "hot
topics."

Most of us play D&D with our close friends. In those situations we know
what can and cannot be discussed. With strangers though it becomes vitally
important to know if a specific topic should be placed out of bounds out of
respect for one (or more) of the players. In situations were such
information cannot be easily obtained, particularly conventions, it is best
to stick to the rather stodgy TSR code of ethics precisely because it will
keep you from offending someone accidentally.

Should such topics even occur in a game. In my own opinion that is
determined by several factors. First and foremost, is there a reason for
the event that affects the story? Purposeless actions on the part of both
DM and player can detract from the story at hand. If there is a purpose for
the event though, then the participants should be considered. If NONE of
them has an objection to the material, then let it come into play. But
remember that it *will* have reprecussions on down the road -- it must for
the event to have any value.

If you are intending to use sensitive materials, adopt a rule from theatre
improv. In improv it is agreed that should any participant feel
uncomfortable they can call the scene. Usually this is done by simply
calling out the word "scene," holding up one's hands or generally act out of
character to make it clear one has had enough. In my own campaigns this
rule has always been in place, UPON PAIN OF EXPULSION FROM THE GROUP.
Historically, in my campaigns, I alone have ever called for scene. As DM I
apply a bit of a director's touch and all items are said in character. My
players sometimes get involved in romantic encounters, and as I describe
these scenes to the player I will build up to a defining moment, usually a
first kiss, but sometimes a bit of undressing. Then I'll call scene,
because to go further has no point, and I personally find such a description
to be lewd. If ever a rape were to occur in one of my campaigns, I would
call scene well ahead of the actual event due to the magnitude of the event
both for the story and also psychologically for the character. Bear in
mind, the event in and of itself need not be described or (especially)
played out in order to deal with the repurcussions in the storyline,
repurcussions which can echo on until the completion of the campaign.

Again I stress, such material is not for trivialization. If you are going
to use such material, use it in a mature and respectful manner, and only
with the consent of ALL participants. This is imperative both for the
health of your campaign and for the health of your real life relationships
with the other participants.

I also advise that if any participant, especially the DM, is unsure about
the introduction of the material in question, don't bring it into play.
It's not worth the risk.

Finally, remember to keep these points in mind when discussing this issue in
the larger community that is this mailing list. I've seen several posts in
the thread that drew me to write this that were anything but respectful of
the issue at hand. Remember to respect the feelings of others, and one way
you do that is to guard your tongue.

Well, I think that's all. If it isn't I'll post further...

***

From Chad Frost
Friday, August 13, 1999 

Ive been reading several posts concerning female players. I have been gaming
since 1st ed came out way back when. I now play in a largge goup every week
with 3 females. One female in particular is my wife. I show no favors to ANYONE
at the gaming table because it wouldnt be fair. In fact on the issue of rape.
Sometimes its the women in the group that actually instigate a rape situation.
I find that women make EXCELLENT role-players and arent concerned too much with
power gaming. Most men ive played with were the opposite. I love the fact my
wife wanted to learn the game. We have had many different types of campains
with different various characters.

Another thing i wish to address about 3ed. I dont understand how anyone can
say that they will quit because of the new rules. One of the best things about
DND is the fact it is completely adjustable. If you dont like 3ed by all means
keep playing 2ed. I myself am using some 1ed, 2ed, PO, and probably already
some 3ed rules. Use what is fun for you.

***

From George Neocleous
Friday, August 13 1999 

<<I've actually played in evil campaigns, and this rule has stayed constant.
Even my evil characters wouldn't consider it. Human sacrifice, sure, but
not rape.>>

I'm sorry, Nexx, but that smacks more of Political Correctness, than any
enlightened stand on women's rights.

***

From DeAnna Ferguson
Friday, August 13, 1999

Very well said. Thank you.

DeAnna

<<All sweeping generalizations are stupid. (Irony is cool.)
Fewer women role-play than men. God bless those that do. Try to be nice to
the ones that have the open-mindedness to give the games a shot, and give
respect to the ones who take the time to learn the game and decide it's not
for them (If you get a girlfriend, make her learn the rules and play two or
three sessions with her own character. She should like it if she can open up.
But sometimes they don't... even though it is a perfect opportunity to
explore the myriad facets of [demi]human nature, so screw them.). In the end,
behind the swords and steel brassieres, it's a social game which is mostly
about learning who we are inside and how we interact with each other on a
higher level, about human nature. So play nice.>>(Yep, more than a little vanity placing this snip here.)

***

From Louis Bergeron
Saturday, August 14 1999

Ok, tell me one thing. (No, I'm not into rapes, trust me!) But how the heck are
half-orcs and half-ogres are born? I don't see a human fall in love with
either an orc or an ogre. Elves/Humans for half-elves most likely though. So
this subject is a fact in D&D games. Once we had a character who was raped
by an orc in one of our session of play, (by the way the DM was female!) and
the player, who's character got raped was female too, but took it in a mature
way! Anyhow her character gave birth to an half-orc and that half orc became
one of her female player!) best character. But my point is, its a fact, but no
one needs to do this in their games, and if they do, they should play that in
a mature way, so if you have rapes in every game session or do think rapes
are ok, then you are in need of help! Get a life! (and a doc!)

***

From Doc Watson
Sunday, August 15, 1999

 Sorry to bring up the subject yet AGAIN, but since everybody's talking about it, I felt compelled to add a past piece of history from one of my own campaigns. I know that rape is an ugly and offensive subject, but I do believe that nearly anything can have important story effects if handled in a proper fashion.

 Shanna Whitelock, a rogue NPC and the love interest of a very dedicated PC in my own group of heros, was in many ways the lady victim. I recall that she had a particular knack for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and rescuing the precocious and spirited woman (who was more interested in leading a normal life and taking up a business than she ever was in adventuring) became for a time an old fallback when I had no new ideas for a game. It was just after a particularly bad period that I suffered lack of inspiration that I decided to introduce a new and possibly re-occuring villian.

This man, Troy, was intended to be the kind of villian that felt no deed was too low for him, and he made most of his money in slaves, weapons, and drugs. I wouldn't have minded him being a very long part of the campaign, but quickly decided that the heroes would never let him rest until they were slain or he was out of business forever once they knew what kind of man he was.

 For several reasons: 1) He had a long and negative relationship with Shanna, having once owned her in the past and had regularly abused her in every way he could come up with. 2) To get the PC's active interest in persuing him. 3) To demonstrate he was serious scum. 4) I have to admit this one too, but to SHOCK and INFURIATE the PC's. He raped the captive Shanna.

I wasn't wrong in my prophecy about his longevity. No matter what precautions and guards he had ready, the players seemed possessed that night. No die roll could be too high, and almost magically they mowed through his defences and dealt death more quickly to my villian that I would have believed possible. It was only that they did not wish to become scum themselves that they didn't raise dead and kill him again.

But that's all fluff to fill in and explain the reasons. Now for the method:

Think THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. When Han's being tortured, we know it, but we do not have to watch it. The PC's found Shanna's somewhat battered body after the terrible deed was done to her, and she was taken to safety before the manhunt began.

I do "Cut scenes" or "Meanwhiles" in my game. I'll pause the action, and if the story permits I'll tell the players a snippet of what's going on in the behind scenes. My players are very good about keeping player and character knowledge separate, and so it's never been a problem, but this case was different, as it dealt with a touchy subject.

I ended up discribing some dialogue and some facial expressions, with some discription of the scene's surroundings, but did the "Fade to black" with Troy advancing on Shanna, who knew all too well from her past association with him what was to come. There is a line that really shouldn't be crossed without a reason. My reason was to charge the night with some emotion, and it did just that, but I did my best to keep the details behind the curtain where they belonged.

 Anybody have questions, comments, or rude remarks on this one?